In part 3, Hamilton tells us about Theseus and Hercules. I think it's important to remember that Theseus was "the thinker" and Hercules depended on his strength. Theseus supported and instituted a people's government when he became King of Athens. He was also a good friend to Hercules after he killed his wife and children. Also, fate is once again brought up in Theseus’s story when he meets his father. Fate and fighting fate is definitely an established theme throughout the myths.
Does anyone have any thoughts on Theseus? Or Hercules?
We touched a little on the topic of hospitality during our class discussion today, and I believe that it's a very important theme throughout the novel. It is a very sacred bond between host and their company, and is greatly looked down upon when the trust is broken. One strong example of this would be in part 4, chapter 13 the Trojan War. Paris had gone to Sparta and shared this bond with Menelaus. Menelaus trusted him whole heartedly, and left Paris at his home while he traveled to Crete. Paris then broke this bond by stealing away Helen while Menelaus was away. When Menelaus returned he called upon all his countrymen and the Trojan War began. I believe that this is one of the strongest examples that show how events can turn bad when one goes against the gods, or the hospitality connection between host and guest.
I also thought there was an interesting twist on how Theseus escaped the dreaded Labyrinth. In the myths women were placed in an insubordinate role. It's amusing that the only way Theseus was able to make it out of the Labyrinth alive was through the help of Ariadne, Minos' daughter.
To go along with what Ariana said about hospitality, another example is when Zeus comes to the house of Baucis and Philemon and they treat him hospitably. He then rewards them for this by giving them a temple to live in. I think it's odd that such a great focus was placed on hospitality in the myths, probably because it is common in today's society. I find it hard to understand why they would need a code to prevent them from killing each other in whatever house they went to.
Kevin. It is the same as the reason that people shake hands. If you shake a person's hand, it shows that you do not have a weapon. It is funny that they had that concern. One can imagine them getting the "game plan" down... "Okay, you are my guest. I won't kill you. You won't kill me. Now, we can sleep." LOL
Ariane. Isn't it interesting that women play such a role in "escape and respite." However, the tale can turn and the woman easily becomes the bad one in the story!! I guess that is Hellenic justice for you!
Rachel. An excellent observation about the various roles that the "hero" plays in the various tales. Knowing that Jason, Hercules, Aeneas and Theseus all share the "hero" title, each do have different attributes, defining them in Hellenic legend:)
Ok so I'm really confused about the entire Aeneas story. I know he's supposed to go to Italy and his descendants will one day destroy Carthage, which Juno tries to prevent by making Dido fall in love with him. And then he goes to the underworld to talk to his dead dad. But the war in Italy was very confusing to me. Can someone help me?!
Skylar. Virgil, a Roman, wrote The Aeneid. Aeneas is esentially the founder of Rome. The myths served two purposes for the Romans: entertainment and validation. They used the "myth" to glorify themselves. Does this help?
While I was reading all the myths in general I thought that the emphasis of beauty was interesting. For example, the Greeks often told stories where the characters were turned into trees or flowers. Obviously emphasizing the beauty in nature. Also, I noticed that the beauty of a character had a lot to do with wether he or she was successful in the story. I understand that the Greeks loved beauty but were they able to see past it to the heart of people as well?
AP STUDENTS: While all questions from the book, up to and including 16 are fair game, pay special attention to the following questions from the packet:
You are so very welcome, Ariana:) The best way to use this info is for various people to choose sections/questions and post answers for comparison and conversation. Just a suggestion;)
One thing I just noticed...when Athena, Aphrodite, and Hera are with Paris who is judging who should receive the apple, Athena offers to him victory for the Trojans over the Greeks. This is before the war even started! I just found it kind of weird that Athena was giving him something he wouldn't need if he chose it, but would need if he hadn't. Kind of strange.
Kelsey. The "prophet aspect" of myths is a fascinating topic. This observation is akin to Achilles's death at Troy prophecy. In both cases, valuable info to know before you get there! Sadly, Achilles didn't listen.
Kelsey, I think this is an example of fate being inescapable in that either way the war was bound to happen. He had been told that he would lay ruin to his country, and therefore the hand of fate would not allow for a way to evade this predicament. Even though Athena made the offer of Trojan victory, she would not have been able to defy fate any more than Paris could have. This is due to the perception that destiny is as destiny will be.
I found it odd that after his time with Circe, Odysseus had to go to Hades in order to get home. If they can find their way to Persephone's shore without a map, why can't they just go straight to Greece? Maybe the author was just drawing out their return in order to make it an epic journey.
Skylar- I was also very confused as to what was going on with Aeneas. I think I re-read it like 3 times, and I still don't know exactly what happened!
Also, in regards to the fate aspect, isn't it funny that the fates, who ultimately have power of gods, goddesses, mortals, everyone, are females and not males...just saying.
Also, I think the concepts of the epic heroes are interesting because many times they are given a task that others assume they will fail, but rise above it and win, as exemplified by Perseus when Polydectes sends him on the quest to kill Medusa, Pelias telling Jason he has to get the Golden Fleece to be King (While also trying to avoid fate), and there are more times in which heroes are sent on seemingly impossible journeys but ultimately overcome them. This can still be an inspiring reflection in today's world; one of perseverance and the strength to continue in the face of doubt and negativity.
Referring partly back to Rachel's comment about the difference between Theseus and Hercules, I think that one hero is a combination of the two: Odysseus. He was strong and formidable in battle (especially the Trojan war), and yet he came up with the idea for the Trojan horse, which overcame the seemingly insurmountable obstacle of Troy's huge walls. Thus he was the union of Greece's two most beloved heroes.
For Skylar- Essentially, Juno knew what fate was in store for her city and she wanted to destroy Aeneas to prevent this tragedy. However, she could not resist fate and Aeneas, with his godlike status (powers), easily defeated Turnus and took Lavinia for his bride. King Latinus was happy and the Roman era began. Thousands of years later, Scipio Africanus crushed and burned Carthage until it was no more.
Nicole, I think that they had to go to the underworld because they needed Teiresias' advice about the perils looming before them, or else they would not be able to navigate back to Ithaca. He warned them about the Island of the Oxen of the Sun-god. As well, finding Greece would be a challenge after being blown around to all manner of horrific and strange places for almost ten years.
Referring to Ariana's comment about Ariadne, it was also very interesting that she was under the tutelage of Daedalus, the great inventor, who was one of King Minos' greatest enemies. She chose to help Theseus though it was against her father's wishes. King Minos was a very cruel and sadistic man, attributes that stayed with him even when he died. He became a judge of the Underworld and abused his power there.
Something I thought was very interesting while reading the Odysseus section was the fact that though Odysseus and Telemachus killed all of Penelope's suitors, they spared the bard. I think that this demonstrates the importance of the oral tradition of the myths in the Greek culture during this time. Odysseus had no problem slaughtering the priest, but he would not kill a man "taught by the gods to sing divinely." This highlights the importance of oral tradition, rather than more organized religion, during the time of Homer.
The hospitality aspect that is so prevalent in the Greek and Roman myths reminds me greatly of Macbeth. When Mrs. Edwards talked about not killing your guests, and in return not being killed by them, all I could think about was Macbeth and King Duncan. One of the reasons Macbeth's sin of murdering Duncan was so terrible was the fact that Macbeth was his guest, and Duncan had trusted him to stay in his castle. I think hospitality is one of those themes that many cultures took from the Greeks, and is still prevalent in our society today.
Emily- I thought that too. When he went against the rule of hospitality, the entire world turned upside down. On the other hand, macbeth was about order and the right to the thrown, so I don't know if that was what Shakespeare was going for
I was reminded of Macbeth too because I found Macbeth and Lady Macbeth to be alot like Zeus and Hera. Macbeth is Zeus because he is being rebellious and tries to control fate by killing King Duncan. Zeus was being rebellious by dethroning his father Cronus and whenever something was out of his hands he would try to regain control. For Macbeth, fate had already made him Thane of Glamis, Thane Cawdor, and soon enough king. So, in order to make sure this came to pass Macbeth took fate into his own hands, but it does not work out in the end as we all know.
As for Lady Macbeth she is Hera because she is the nagging wife. Hera is the nagging wife because she nags Zeus about his affairs. Lady Macbeth is the nagging wife too because she nags Macbeth about killing King Duncan and basically what a baby he is for not doing so without a second thought.
@Emily - I was also reminded of Macbeth, but more in the sense of how attempting to overcome fate led to tragedy. Macbeth did everything in his power to prevent his death as predicted by the Weird sisters, but his actions actually caused the events that sealed his fate. This pattern can be seen in many of the Greek myths as well (Such as Pelias sending Jason on his quest for the fleece). Another theme that I think runs kind of parallel to this is arrogance in the face of the gods leading to tragedy, as exemplified by Prometheus, Bellerophon, Otus and Ephialtes, and Icarus. When reading these stories I was especially reminded of Frankenstein.
It seems that curiosity plays a destructive role when involved with women. Pandora, for instance, let all of sorrow on humankind because of her curiosity. Also, both Medusa and the Sirens use curiosity to lure many to death because people either want to hear or see them.
Sam, I also noticed this recurring theme in the novel. I think it goes with what we were discussing in class about how women were inferior in that time period, and that's why almost all of the women in mythology are depicted negatively.
I saw a lot of similarities between Macbeth and Lady Macbeth and Jocasta and Oedipus...they try to control fate (and of course, fail) and both of the women seemed very manipulative and only added to the fate of the protagonist.
Kevin. The quiz comes primarily from the DQ packet. As I said before, anything from the packet up to and including ch. 16 is fair game. It is a comprehension based quiz; therefore, you will need to know some characters. If you used the packet while studying, you will be fine.
Also, I'd like to think about the way beauty and more prominently sexual desire plays a role in the myths. Many men, including gods such as Zeus, lust after women and their physical attraction causes wars, disruption, and sometimes even (death) among other women (Hera) and vice versa for the women; some are so in love or physically attracted they force the men to stay (Circe) or spare their lives when everyone else is killing them (Hypermnestra). This is a really interesting topic about the allure of human sexual desire and a complex topic that I think we should take note of, especially considering that it will be useful when we study Tennessee Williams' A Streetcar Named Desire.
Jeff- I've definitely taken special notice to the theme of sexual desire as well. What struck me most was the idea that gods, divine beings, are so inflicted by humanly sins. In modern times we see something divine as pure, flawless, and compassionate, but these Greek and Roman gods and goddesses are suceptible to the same inevitable issues we go through. It's hard to believe Greek citizens truly believed in these myths and supported these immoral gods.
In part 3, Hamilton tells us about Theseus and Hercules. I think it's important to remember that Theseus was "the thinker" and Hercules depended on his strength. Theseus supported and instituted a people's government when he became King of Athens. He was also a good friend to Hercules after he killed his wife and children. Also, fate is once again brought up in Theseus’s story when he meets his father. Fate and fighting fate is definitely an established theme throughout the myths.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone have any thoughts on Theseus? Or Hercules?
We touched a little on the topic of hospitality during our class discussion today, and I believe that it's a very important theme throughout the novel. It is a very sacred bond between host and their company, and is greatly looked down upon when the trust is broken. One strong example of this would be in part 4, chapter 13 the Trojan War. Paris had gone to Sparta and shared this bond with Menelaus. Menelaus trusted him whole heartedly, and left Paris at his home while he traveled to Crete. Paris then broke this bond by stealing away Helen while Menelaus was away. When Menelaus returned he called upon all his countrymen and the Trojan War began. I believe that this is one of the strongest examples that show how events can turn bad when one goes against the gods, or the hospitality connection between host and guest.
ReplyDeleteRachel--
ReplyDeleteI also thought there was an interesting twist on how Theseus escaped the dreaded Labyrinth. In the myths women were placed in an insubordinate role. It's amusing that the only way Theseus was able to make it out of the Labyrinth alive was through the help of Ariadne, Minos' daughter.
To go along with what Ariana said about hospitality, another example is when Zeus comes to the house of Baucis and Philemon and they treat him hospitably. He then rewards them for this by giving them a temple to live in. I think it's odd that such a great focus was placed on hospitality in the myths, probably because it is common in today's society. I find it hard to understand why they would need a code to prevent them from killing each other in whatever house they went to.
ReplyDeleteKevin. It is the same as the reason that people shake hands. If you shake a person's hand, it shows that you do not have a weapon. It is funny that they had that concern. One can imagine them getting the "game plan" down... "Okay, you are my guest. I won't kill you. You won't kill me. Now, we can sleep." LOL
ReplyDeleteAriane. Isn't it interesting that women play such a role in "escape and respite." However, the tale can turn and the woman easily becomes the bad one in the story!! I guess that is Hellenic justice for you!
ReplyDeleteRachel. An excellent observation about the various roles that the "hero" plays in the various tales. Knowing that Jason, Hercules, Aeneas and Theseus all share the "hero" title, each do have different attributes, defining them in Hellenic legend:)
ReplyDeleteOk so I'm really confused about the entire Aeneas story. I know he's supposed to go to Italy and his descendants will one day destroy Carthage, which Juno tries to prevent by making Dido fall in love with him. And then he goes to the underworld to talk to his dead dad. But the war in Italy was very confusing to me. Can someone help me?!
ReplyDeleteSkylar. Virgil, a Roman, wrote The Aeneid. Aeneas is esentially the founder of Rome. The myths served two purposes for the Romans: entertainment and validation. They used the "myth" to glorify themselves. Does this help?
ReplyDeleteyes, thank you :)
ReplyDeleteWhile I was reading all the myths in general I thought that the emphasis of beauty was interesting. For example, the Greeks often told stories where the characters were turned into trees or flowers. Obviously emphasizing the beauty in nature. Also, I noticed that the beauty of a character had a lot to do with wether he or she was successful in the story. I understand that the Greeks loved beauty but were they able to see past it to the heart of people as well?
ReplyDeleteAP STUDENTS: While all questions from the book, up to and including 16 are fair game, pay special attention to the following questions from the packet:
ReplyDeleteIntro- (all)
Ch.1&2- 13-18
Ch. 3&4- 7-11
Ch. 5&6- (all)
Ch. 7&8 6-11
Ch 9-12 6-10
Ch. 13&14 1-7
Ch. 15&16 6-11
Thanks Mrs.Edwards that will help a lot!!!
ReplyDeleteYou are so very welcome, Ariana:) The best way to use this info is for various people to choose sections/questions and post answers for comparison and conversation. Just a suggestion;)
ReplyDeleteOne thing I just noticed...when Athena, Aphrodite, and Hera are with Paris who is judging who should receive the apple, Athena offers to him victory for the Trojans over the Greeks. This is before the war even started! I just found it kind of weird that Athena was giving him something he wouldn't need if he chose it, but would need if he hadn't. Kind of strange.
ReplyDeleteKelsey. The "prophet aspect" of myths is a fascinating topic. This observation is akin to Achilles's death at Troy prophecy. In both cases, valuable info to know before you get there! Sadly, Achilles didn't listen.
ReplyDeleteKelsey, I think this is an example of fate being inescapable in that either way the war was bound to happen. He had been told that he would lay ruin to his country, and therefore the hand of fate would not allow for a way to evade this predicament. Even though Athena made the offer of Trojan victory, she would not have been able to defy fate any more than Paris could have. This is due to the perception that destiny is as destiny will be.
ReplyDeleteAlexis. You have articulated the idea of the role of fate in myths in outstanding fashion:) Well done!!
ReplyDeleteI found it odd that after his time with Circe, Odysseus had to go to Hades in order to get home. If they can find their way to Persephone's shore without a map, why can't they just go straight to Greece? Maybe the author was just drawing out their return in order to make it an epic journey.
ReplyDeleteSkylar- I was also very confused as to what was going on with Aeneas. I think I re-read it like 3 times, and I still don't know exactly what happened!
ReplyDeleteAlso, in regards to the fate aspect, isn't it funny that the fates, who ultimately have power of gods, goddesses, mortals, everyone, are females and not males...just saying.
Also, I think the concepts of the epic heroes are interesting because many times they are given a task that others assume they will fail, but rise above it and win, as exemplified by Perseus when Polydectes sends him on the quest to kill Medusa, Pelias telling Jason he has to get the Golden Fleece to be King (While also trying to avoid fate), and there are more times in which heroes are sent on seemingly impossible journeys but ultimately overcome them. This can still be an inspiring reflection in today's world; one of perseverance and the strength to continue in the face of doubt and negativity.
Referring partly back to Rachel's comment about the difference between Theseus and Hercules, I think that one hero is a combination of the two: Odysseus. He was strong and formidable in battle (especially the Trojan war), and yet he came up with the idea for the Trojan horse, which overcame the seemingly insurmountable obstacle of Troy's huge walls. Thus he was the union of Greece's two most beloved heroes.
ReplyDeleteFor Skylar- Essentially, Juno knew what fate was in store for her city and she wanted to destroy Aeneas to prevent this tragedy. However, she could not resist fate and Aeneas, with his godlike status (powers), easily defeated Turnus and took Lavinia for his bride. King Latinus was happy and the Roman era began. Thousands of years later, Scipio Africanus crushed and burned Carthage until it was no more.
ReplyDeleteNicole, I think that they had to go to the underworld because they needed Teiresias' advice about the perils looming before them, or else they would not be able to navigate back to Ithaca. He warned them about the Island of the Oxen of the Sun-god. As well, finding Greece would be a challenge after being blown around to all manner of horrific and strange places for almost ten years.
ReplyDeleteReferring to Ariana's comment about Ariadne, it was also very interesting that she was under the tutelage of Daedalus, the great inventor, who was one of King Minos' greatest enemies. She chose to help Theseus though it was against her father's wishes. King Minos was a very cruel and sadistic man, attributes that stayed with him even when he died. He became a judge of the Underworld and abused his power there.
ReplyDeleteSomething I thought was very interesting while reading the Odysseus section was the fact that though Odysseus and Telemachus killed all of Penelope's suitors, they spared the bard. I think that this demonstrates the importance of the oral tradition of the myths in the Greek culture during this time. Odysseus had no problem slaughtering the priest, but he would not kill a man "taught by the gods to sing divinely." This highlights the importance of oral tradition, rather than more organized religion, during the time of Homer.
ReplyDeleteThe hospitality aspect that is so prevalent in the Greek and Roman myths reminds me greatly of Macbeth. When Mrs. Edwards talked about not killing your guests, and in return not being killed by them, all I could think about was Macbeth and King Duncan. One of the reasons Macbeth's sin of murdering Duncan was so terrible was the fact that Macbeth was his guest, and Duncan had trusted him to stay in his castle. I think hospitality is one of those themes that many cultures took from the Greeks, and is still prevalent in our society today.
ReplyDeleteThoughts? Was anyone else reminded of Macbeth?
Emily- I thought that too. When he went against the rule of hospitality, the entire world turned upside down. On the other hand, macbeth was about order and the right to the thrown, so I don't know if that was what Shakespeare was going for
ReplyDeleteEmily-
ReplyDeleteI was reminded of Macbeth too because I found Macbeth and Lady Macbeth to be alot like Zeus and Hera. Macbeth is Zeus because he is being rebellious and tries to control fate by killing King Duncan. Zeus was being rebellious by dethroning his father Cronus and whenever something was out of his hands he would try to regain control. For Macbeth, fate had already made him Thane of Glamis, Thane Cawdor, and soon enough king. So, in order to make sure this came to pass Macbeth took fate into his own hands, but it does not work out in the end as we all know.
As for Lady Macbeth she is Hera because she is the nagging wife. Hera is the nagging wife because she nags Zeus about his affairs. Lady Macbeth is the nagging wife too because she nags Macbeth about killing King Duncan and basically what a baby he is for not doing so without a second thought.
@Emily - I was also reminded of Macbeth, but more in the sense of how attempting to overcome fate led to tragedy. Macbeth did everything in his power to prevent his death as predicted by the Weird sisters, but his actions actually caused the events that sealed his fate. This pattern can be seen in many of the Greek myths as well (Such as Pelias sending Jason on his quest for the fleece). Another theme that I think runs kind of parallel to this is arrogance in the face of the gods leading to tragedy, as exemplified by Prometheus, Bellerophon, Otus and Ephialtes, and Icarus. When reading these stories I was especially reminded of Frankenstein.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that curiosity plays a destructive role when involved with women. Pandora, for instance, let all of sorrow on humankind because of her curiosity. Also, both Medusa and the Sirens use curiosity to lure many to death because people either want to hear or see them.
ReplyDeleteSam,
ReplyDeleteI also noticed this recurring theme in the novel. I think it goes with what we were discussing in class about how women were inferior in that time period, and that's why almost all of the women in mythology are depicted negatively.
Mrs. Edwards-
ReplyDeleteShould we know both the Greek and Roman names for the quiz tomorrow? I'm assuming we should but I'm just making sure
I saw a lot of similarities between Macbeth and Lady Macbeth and Jocasta and Oedipus...they try to control fate (and of course, fail) and both of the women seemed very manipulative and only added to the fate of the protagonist.
ReplyDeleteKevin. The quiz comes primarily from the DQ packet. As I said before, anything from the packet up to and including ch. 16 is fair game. It is a comprehension based quiz; therefore, you will need to know some characters. If you used the packet while studying, you will be fine.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'd like to think about the way beauty and more prominently sexual desire plays a role in the myths. Many men, including gods such as Zeus, lust after women and their physical attraction causes wars, disruption, and sometimes even (death) among other women (Hera) and vice versa for the women; some are so in love or physically attracted they force the men to stay (Circe) or spare their lives when everyone else is killing them (Hypermnestra). This is a really interesting topic about the allure of human sexual desire and a complex topic that I think we should take note of, especially considering that it will be useful when we study Tennessee Williams' A Streetcar Named Desire.
ReplyDeleteJeff-
ReplyDeleteI've definitely taken special notice to the theme of sexual desire as well. What struck me most was the idea that gods, divine beings, are so inflicted by humanly sins. In modern times we see something divine as pure, flawless, and compassionate, but these Greek and Roman gods and goddesses are suceptible to the same inevitable issues we go through. It's hard to believe Greek citizens truly believed in these myths and supported these immoral gods.